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HR in the Car - Episode 21: "It Really Is a Human Issue"

  • This weeks guest, Reg Harnish, talks about what it was like transitioning from working with big business, to altering his view and approach working with 99% of the business market in the US – Small Business. We shared a lot of great stories, hinting at how Reg’s timeline looked like Bill Gates’. You’ll love hearing about what would be in Reg’s Roadside Assistance Kit, as well as how one of his favorite charities leaves him inspired to help. 

    About Reg

    Reg Harnish is a nationally recognized cybersecurity veteran, investor, board member, advisor, speaker, author, and CEO of OrbitalFire. Reg is also the founder and former CEO of GreyCastle Security, a former Executive Vice President at the Center for Internet Security, and the former CTO of Autotask. OrbitalFire is a leading cybersecurity services provider focused on simplifying, automating, and ultimately solving security challenges for the underserved – small businesses. Reg is responsible for the company’s vision, strategy, and growth. Reg is a fellow of the National Cybersecurity Institute, a member of the Forbes Technology Council, and a board advisor to numerous high-growth cybersecurity startups. Reg has been featured in Time Magazine, Forbes, The Washington Post, CBS Nightly News, CIO Magazine, Dark Reading, Software Magazine, ComputerWorld, InfoWorld and countless other media outlets. Reg has been practicing cybersecurity for nearly two decades. His experiences, skills, and sometimes provocative perspectives have established him as a highly respected thought-leader and sought-after keynote speaker in the industry. 

    Reg Harnish

    CEO, OrbitalFire Cybersecurity 

    American Red Cross

  • Miriam Dushane: Welcome to HR In the Car with Miriam Dushane and Tom Schin of Alaant Workforce Solutions, where exciting HR professionals and business leaders share laughter, insider stories, and maybe even a few tears about HR in today's world. Buckle up for the best half hour of your week.

    Tom Schin: Well, Miriam, I'm really excited for this next guest. I've always read about him and heard about him. I'd never met him in person. It was so funny having him come in the door and saying, "Who are you?"

    Miriam Dushane: Yeah, I know.

    Tom Schin: So we're excited to have Reg Harnish from OrbitalFire as our next guest on HR In The Car. You mentioned that you'd met him a long time ago.

    Miriam Dushane: I've known Reg for over 20 years.

    Tom Schin: Wow.

    Miriam Dushane: Yes. I remember when he worked at Autotask. Like, we talked and worked together. He thinks I actually placed him in a job years ago, but I told him, in honesty, I'm pretty sure I never did. But I know I worked with him as a hiring manager in the past. But yeah, I mean, he's done great things with companies from Autotask to GreyCastle and now OrbitalFire. So I'm really excited that he's talking with us because he has a great story and I think it's really important for small business to understand that cyber does affect them too. So Reg, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us a little bit. So if you were out at a party and someone... You're being introduced to someone for the first time and they said, "Oh, what do you do?" What would you tell them you do?

    Reg Harnish: I'd probably start with, I'm a really underrated dancer. No, I would not. I would mention that I'm a proud father and someone who spent a lot of time in my career focusing on that. But at probably the right moment, figured out how to adjust my priorities and think about family and do other things. So I'd probably gravitate towards talking about my recent marriage, my six-year-old daughter, or upcoming Disney cruise, and go from there.

    Miriam Dushane: Gotcha. Now, if you were going to talk about what you do for a living, what would you say?

    Reg Harnish: Well, I would say my plans changed when I only ended up being 5'10. I was going to be the point guard for the Knicks, or I would've replaced Phil Rudd, the drummer of AC/DC, but neither of those worked out. So I ended up getting into technology very young. I was 13 when I got my first computer. My grandfather was a huge part of my life and very influential and kind of the male figure. And he was the original nerd, and he was a TV repairman down in Albany. But he loved computers, and if anyone who remembers the very first personal computers, I mean, they looked nothing like they do today. They kind of looked like an iPad with a keyboard, like a tactile keyboard. Anyway, I was getting his hand-me-downs starting at age 13. So I started coding, and really by the time I was ready to get into college, I was already working full time. I was making more money than my parents, and which was good and bad, honestly. I had more money than brains. And so really sort of fast- forward, the highlights, kicked out of college, ended up working for NASA for a while, moved around the country with different technology jobs. The real first important one, I guess, was I had just moved back to the Albany area. I worked for a company called Fact. Anyone who knows Craig Skevington, it was one of his startups, and I was like employee seven, or something like that. We ended up going through an IPO four years later, five years later. It was a really exciting time. The late '90s was just like "boom" in technology. So it was really exciting. I had a lot of responsibility. I ended up with a pile of money at the end, and it was exciting. I moved to New York City and started a company with Kimbal Musk, Elon's brother.

    Miriam Dushane: No way.

    Reg Harnish: It was a video platform. Looked a little bit like YouTube, but really, one, it was not a great time to be starting a company. 2001-ish, 2002. It was kind of kind of crashing. And also, obviously there was just no future in a platform that all it did was play videos. So we got out.

    Miriam Dushane: I know, why would anyone want that?

    Reg Harnish: We got out as quickly as possible. I moved home from there. Met Bob Godgart, Dick Frederick. Ended up being one of the founders and CTO of Autotask, and was there for about eight years. And that company was, I mean, just super exciting. We had customers globally and we ended up with a lot of investment, a lot of ton of dollars. And the company ultimately went through a couple of mergers and acquisitions.
    The last one was close to a billion dollars. Then I did a few things in cybersecurity. I'll come back to where it started, and started a company called Greycastle Security in 2011. That became a very successful professional services firm in that space. And then in 2019 was one of the people that came up with an idea. Really it was not my idea, I can't take credit for it, but it was my job to evaluate this idea of bringing cybersecurity to small businesses. And at first I was like, first of all, I don't know anything about small businesses. And second of all, it sounds like a dumb idea. But after some analysis and just kind of looking through and building a business plan, I just fell in love with it. And so that's what I've been doing ever since. We launched the company officially June 1st 2020, and been doubling the company every year. So, pretty exciting.

    Miriam Dushane: Smack dab in the middle of a pandemic.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah. Why not?

    Miriam Dushane: Why not?

    Reg Harnish: My cybersecurity career started back in 2003 or four at Autotask. We had a big multi- billion dollar prospect that wanted to buy a version of our software. And the last hurdle we had to get over was a cybersecurity audit. And so first time I ever heard of the ISO27K, got my butt kicked, but just ended up falling in love with the whole thing, the process, and just really everything about it just fit my personality really well. Yeah, pretty much from there, the rest of my career just gravitated towards cyber.

    Miriam Dushane: So how were you learning how to code when you were 13? Was it just all books? I mean, the internet, you're not that much older than me. I think you and I are very close in the age. I mean, I'm 48.

    Tom Schin: She's 29.

    Miriam Dushane: I'm 48, I'll be honest. I'm 48. How old are you?

    Reg Harnish: I'm 53.

    Miriam Dushane: Okay. So we didn't have the internet when we were 13.

    Reg Harnish: No. So it was definitely from books and it was also from my grandfather who was already coding. And he had a ton of books.

    Tom Schin: You had the Pascal, and you had the little rocket ship.

    Miriam Dushane: Was it Pascal? Was it basic? Is it basic? It was basic?

    Reg Harnish: I mean, I don't know when Pascal was invented, but that was out of my grasp at that time. Everything was basic and you know, you turned the computer on and anything you wanted to do, you had to load it from a cassette tape. And then when you turned the computer off, well, everything's gone. Either you saved it or you didn't on cassette. But generally, for me, I was really into Castle Wolfenstein.

    Tom Schin: Loved that game.

    Reg Harnish: Which was the, I wanted to say eight bits, not even eight bit, one bit game where it's just text read out to you.

    Tom Schin: You had one silhouette of a castle or whatever it was that was on, I don't remember all the way back then, but-

    Reg Harnish: It was all ASCII graphics.

    Tom Schin: Yep.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah. But I fell in love with that. So I was kind trying to come up with my own version of something.

    Miriam Dushane: I have so many questions, 'cause I want to know why he got kicked out of school. How did he end up at NASA? I mean, come on.

    Tom Schin: That's what my kid wants to know, is how do I end up there?

    Miriam Dushane: Without going to school?

    Reg Harnish: Well, you see, I worked at NASA when it wasn't so cool, honestly. Although looking back, and I do have a couple of mission badges, which at the time meant nothing to me, but now it's pretty awesome. But my job was taking all of these spy satellite images and putting them in a database and processing them so that they could generate intelligence. I had a top secret clearance and but the government just moved so slow. And of course I knew everything, and so I wasn't there for very long. Now, looking back, it's a way cooler job than I probably gave it credit for.

    Tom Schin: Yeah.

    Miriam Dushane: Yeah. I think it's cool right now. Absolutely.

    Tom Schin: My next door neighbor growing up, he was colorblind as well. We talked about this earlier, 'cause we're on Go Red today, and I think I'm wearing orange. So he would look at satellite imagery in the Vietnam War, and his job was to look at the camouflage shot to look at the forestry shots and he'd spot camouflage camouflage. So he'd, "tank, Jeep, Jeep, Tank, Carrier," this and that. And the other, where they just see trees, but because of the contrast that we color defunct people can see and can't see, we can spot that.

    Miriam Dushane: So that was actually a special skill for something like that. That's fascinating.

    Tom Schin: That gave me hope that I could do something with my life.

    Miriam Dushane: I think you made it out okay, Mr. Friend. I think you're okay.

    Tom Schin: So tell us about the getting kicked out of school piece. That's always fun.

    Reg Harnish: God, listen, thank you to, probably, my mom, I ended up being really good at standardized tests. So high school was very easy. I don't know, I was really at the top of my class and I ended up, I think either it was either a 1410 or a 1610 on my SATs.

    Miriam Dushane: Very good.

    Reg Harnish: And so I could kind of go wherever I wanted. I mean, most colleges and universities were, the SAT score was like, that was-

    Tom Schin: The bread and butter.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah, that was it. And so I only applied to RPI and really because I admired my aunt and that's where she went. And so she was getting all these different degrees and I'm like, yeah, whatever. Even though my best friend went to Boston University and I was there every weekend because RPI was not the most socially exciting place to be. Subsequently, I mentioned I was working full- time. Really through most of my short college career, I was working, I already had a job. And meanwhile at RPI, the computer science curriculum was really just antiquated. They were teaching COBOL and Modula- 2 compiling, and I was already writing in C and Oracle at my job. And so I'm like, I can't do this. Plus I had a ton of parking tickets. And so I don't know what my GPA was, but it was probably single digits. I just couldn't get interested and I wasn't a good student either. I didn't get the study gene from anyone. I was just not good at it.

    Miriam Dushane: So curious though, fast forwarding, do you have a college degree?

    Reg Harnish: I do not.

    Miriam Dushane: See. I love it.

    Reg Harnish: I have the same degree that Bill Gates and Larry Ellison-

    Tom Schin: I was going to say. Your entire storyline, I'm thinking this sounds like Bill Gates' storyline.

    Miriam Dushane: I know. Very much.

    Reg Harnish: That's my backup anyway.

    Miriam Dushane: Yeah, absolutely, right. So talk about the business. So small business, cybersecurity. Cybersecurity seems to be everywhere these days. Everybody's talking about it. It's on the news a lot more. We hear about all of these healthcare companies or larger institutions being hacked or data breaches or whatever it might be. Talk to me about what's the small business take on cybersecurity? A, do they think they need it or want it? Are they being made aware of it? What's the marketing campaign and how are you getting the knowledge out to them that this is an important thing for their business too, even though they might think that they're not a threat because they're a tiny business?

    Reg Harnish: It's a grind. Reminds me of a story. One of my best friends was in downtown Albany and they were outside, boyfriend girlfriend come spilling out onto the sidewalk and they're fighting, literally whacking each other. And one of my best friends, he was this hockey player, jumped in, floored the guy. And at the moment we're all just shocked and we're expecting this girl to run up and give him a hug for helping her avoid a real beat down. And she ended up scratching his face.

    Tom Schin: She wanted to do it herself.

    Reg Harnish: Well, sometimes you care more than the victim. And there's a lot of that in cyber for small businesses right now. It's changing slowly but surely, and in an accelerating fashion. But today, many, many small businesses still feel like they're invulnerable or they're not being targeted or they're not educated enough to know that this is important. And the industry has done them no favors, though, honestly. We love, and I blame myself, I'm part of it. We love complexity and hype and hysteria and headlines because it sells technology, it sells product. But the reality is we've abandoned small business. The entire, well now I think it's like $373 billion, cyber industry has nothing for small businesses. And so over the years, spending time in that industry became very clear. In fact, even back at Greycastle Security, can't tell you how many times we walked away from a small business that wanted to work with us. We couldn't afford them and they couldn't afford us, and kind of stuck with me. And then in 2019, when someone brought this idea to me, really that was sort of my instinct was, I don't think I'm going to be good at this myself, but this problem needs to be solved.

    Miriam Dushane: Yeah, absolutely.

    Reg Harnish: And so when you think about the metrics, it's overwhelming. 99.87% of all businesses in this country, are their small businesses of 25 to 250 employees. 60% of all employees work for a small business. And I think it's 55% of our GDP is small business. And we've completely ignored the entire thing. The entire cyber industry has completely ignored that segment. So our mission is making it accessible and affordable, easier to understand and make informed decisions and relevant. A lot of the stuff that's been built, whether it's technology or even service providers like Greycastle, they're designed to solve really big, really complex issues for really big organizations. And it's been a challenge to try and scale that down to a 25 person physician practice. So we're a small manufacturer in Queensbury. So for me it's been exciting because kind of had a chance to go back to school and learn about a totally different market and a totally different way of thinking about cybersecurity. But so far, so good. I will say it is a lot of hard work and oftentimes we care more than the victim.

    Tom Schin: Yeah. I'm curious that you mentioned that small business and being away from it and then suddenly these last couple years being involved. I'm wondering if there's that one aha moment with the small business. Yes, you got presented with an idea in 2019, but what was that epiphany that hit you about small business that you wish you'd known 10 or 20 years ago?

    Reg Harnish: I don't know if there was one data point, but certainly the addressable market is exciting. This is the sheer volume of people and companies and you start to dig into it. I mean, you think about Walmart and Target, the companies that I used to work with. Guess who's connected to Walmart?

    Miriam Dushane: Small business.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah. Like a million of them. Exactly. A million small businesses are connected. So it became easier as I got into looking at, how do I translate all this institutional knowledge into something that will be useful to a completely different type of entity, that they're really just part of the supply chain too. The dam was open at that point and the idea started to flourish a little bit. But yeah, I would argue we still haven't cracked the code, we're still experimenting a lot and trying to figure out messaging and where do they get their information. And we've been successful as a company, but we're not just taking orders.

    Miriam Dushane: It's interesting. I think from a small business perspective, I'm an owner of a small business, and I think the biggest thing that people need to understand is that it's typically, or at least in my experiences, we've been harassed by more phishing schemes. So somebody posing as me telling my finance person to cut a check. And luckily my people have been trained, at least enough to think that that's weird. That's not something Miriam normally does, so they're not going to do anything until they talk to me and ask me what's going on. Thank God. Because we have had other people in our company who have had similar things where, and it seems to be me, they're pretending to be me spoofing my email or whatever and saying, or text. We had it over the last summer, a text thing came through a couple of times and people were like, "Was this you?"
    And I'm like, "No, , that is definitely not me." But thank God they were smart enough, and we had checks and balances in place where my finance person knows what the process is to cut a check, how we do it. It's not, "Cut me a check for $ 14, 000." It's, "Here's an invoice for this organization that we're doing business with. This has been approved for payment." There is certain language and things that, luckily, just by process alone, not thinking cyber related, that we had put in place that actually safeguarded us. But we work with people's data all the time. I have my internal employees, I have all of their data, but I also have all of my temporary employees. And I'm responsible for all of their data and all of the data that's in my system from all the people who have worked for me last year and the year before. And so I think small business needs to understand that they really need to be aware of this and train their people. So if a person wasn't going to buy services from you, but you wanted to at least leave them with one tidbit of something they could do to help safeguard their business or make their employees more aware, what do you think that might be?

    Reg Harnish: Well, certainly HR is a commonly overlooked component of cybersecurity, because we're looking at risk to data. And every cyber risk comes down to a human being. Whether it's people clicking links or misconfiguring a firewall, writing sloppy code. It could be anything. So it really is a human issue. There's not one thing. I mean, people ask me that question all the time. And because it's a process, it would be like saying, "In terms of your personal fitness, what's one thing you would recommend to someone? Is it sit- ups? Is it kale? Is it more water?" So it's hard. It's really hard because every organization is different and they all have their own individual risks. But what I would say is, if this is something you're contemplating or on the brink of investing in, really try to answer one question. Whether you're looking for a provider or you're deciding what and what not to do, is it worth it? Because most decision makers, business owners, fiduciaries, whatever, they don't have enough knowledge or understanding of cyber to really make informed decisions based on data, heuristics, empirical data. But they do have a sense of their gut and what feels right and what feels like overkill. And so we try to boil it down into real simple terms to make the decision making easier. But really it comes down to, is it worth it? Think about your home. I mean, do you have a shotgun? Do you a security system?

    Miriam Dushane: Do you lock your doors?

    Reg Harnish: Do you lock your doors at night? I mean, everyone makes these sort of instinctual decisions all day. And actually human beings are very good at managing risk until it comes to cyber. But you can leverage a lot of those same instincts and lizard brain capabilities to make the same decisions. So I would say, encourage people to really think about what's it worth to reduce the risk of cyber related issues in their business.

    Miriam Dushane: Well, and not to mention, if you just look at it from a data protection standpoint, New York State has laws in place that make you liable. You are responsible for that. That alone could shut a business down. And then let's not forget, I mean, we were just talking about this before we started recording, my cyber insurance went through the roof this year. And knock on wood, we've been pretty good company when it comes to that. We've not any had any breaches. We're very careful. Over the year even, I feel like sometimes it's overkill and I'm like, "Two- factor's not enough." Now I've got to do this multifactor thing and I have to have this app on my phone and every time I log out, I've got to get a text to be able to log back in. What the hell? But when I step back and go, "Fine", it's like two extra tiny little steps that take me two seconds to do something on a computer.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah. I mean, I think you answered the question. Was it worth it?

    Miriam Dushane: Right. It is. I still have a business this year.

    Reg Harnish: You still have a business and insurance.

    Miriam Dushane: But I just think that insurance alone, having an organization helping with cybersecurity, all of us are paying for these cyber crimes. All of us are paying for the things that are happening that we're reading and hearing about.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah, sure.

    Tom Schin: I'd liken it to, I think of my mother. Parents of our age, 80s, 90s, whatever it is. They'll click into anything. They'll open anything. My mom almost got scammed by somebody from Bank of America, supposedly from Bank of America and Publishers Clearing House, was going to win $5,000. And the bells were going off in her head not to do this, but she's still making the phone call to respond to this person. And fortunately, we stepped in and stopped her. But I've had plenty of friends whose grandparent got swindled for five, 10, $15, 000. Your son, your grandson's in jail and he needs the money. So it's kind of teaching your folks, just be wary. You don't have to trust every single message unless you hear a familiar voice. All right. Get a phone number, call them back.

    Miriam Dushane: So it's so funny, you talk about our older generation. My mother has a notebook, and she's never been hacked, okay? Never been hacked, never lost any money. But God bless her. I think it's because she was a prison employee, meaning she worked for the prison system, so they were taught you trust no one.

    Reg Harnish: Trust but verify, right.

    Miriam Dushane: She has a notebook, and the passwords this woman makes up are frigging genius. And I'm like, what in the hell? And she, oh man, nothing has the same password, nothing. And she doesn't do that much online, but she still has to have a notebook because I need the notebook. I'm like, "Mom, if anything ever happens to you, make sure the notebook is somewhere where I can find it." But the things she makes up with the numbers and the letters and the words, the funniest things too. I can't even think of one. It is just ridiculous.

    Reg Harnish: What's funny is that most people do have the skills. We talk about social engineering issues and scams and fraud and that. Most people have the skills. What they refuse to do is apply them. But one recommendation that I make to folks, so going back to your example of someone getting a social and making the call, even though their spidey sense was going off, is take yourself out of email. Imagine that you're at the grocery store and someone, a stranger walks up to you and delivers the exact same message word for word. How do you feel? Well, it's the same instinct.

    Miriam Dushane: Yeah, absolutely.

    Reg Harnish: And what the difference is, that's a medium and a situation that people are comfortable with and familiar with. So now they can go back to those risk management instincts that they were born with. Because email really kind of made it disguised. Well, it makes it harder. It actually disguises or clouds your ability to assess risk because you're busy in email. This isn't real life. This is the matrix. So I tell people, just imagine you're pumping gas at a gas station and some random stranger walks up to you and says, "Prince Nabu from Nigeria has a check for $14 million for you. And all you've got to do is wire 12,000 to get a stamp."

    Miriam Dushane: I know, right? Roadside assistance toolkit. So what is in your roadside assistance kit.

    Reg Harnish: I was so excited for this question. So I'm a bit of a prepper.

    Miriam Dushane: Okay.

    Reg Harnish: A little bit.

    Miriam Dushane: Keep talking.

    Tom Schin: Like, worst case survivalist?

    Reg Harnish: Yeah.

    Tom Schin: All right.

    Miriam Dushane: Like doomsday prepping prepper?

    Reg Harnish: Yeah, doomsday prepping.

    Miriam Dushane: Interesting.

    Reg Harnish: So I was really into it several years ago. It's kind of faded a little bit. It's just been busy with work and stuff. But I actually have a go bag with-

    Miriam Dushane: A go bag, okay.

    Reg Harnish: 72 hours worth of food, clothing, shelter, and safety at all times. And I have some extra stuff in my car, specifically like auto related stuff. I literally have one bag and it's in my office and I could grab it and run out of the house and be good for 72 hours pretty much anywhere.

    Miriam Dushane: Wow. Interesting.

    Tom Schin: That's a good one.

    Reg Harnish: It's a whole other story. But yeah, and it's kind of fun, honestly, you know.

    Tom Schin: Do you go back into it and change out items here and there?

    Reg Harnish: You do. You have to do it twice a year in upstate New York just because of the seasonal change. You've got to make sure that the right clothing and stuff like that. The other stuff you tend to buy dried food and water doesn't go bad. You know, can keep water if it's in the right container for a couple of years. But some of the stuff, mostly clothing and shelter because of the seasonal change. But other things, no, they can, they last forever. Band- aids. Beans. Bleach tablets. I mean, they last forever.

    Miriam Dushane: Do you have enough for your wife and daughter?

    Tom Schin: I was just going to say the same thing.

    Reg Harnish: Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. I guess I can't send this link to Cindy.

    Tom Schin: One of us has to make it. That's great.

    Miriam Dushane: I love it.

    Tom Schin: I'm thinking of that show on HBO. Last Of Us.

    Miriam Dushane: Yeah, I heard about that show. I could never watch that show. That stuff's not in my DNA.

    Tom Schin: It's intense.

    Reg Harnish: Oh, I just love post- apocalyptic movies because, I mean, what a awesome concept. There's no people and you can shoot whatever you want.

    Tom Schin: Well, and they can make up whatever storyline and nobody can really complain about it, 'cause it's future tense.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah.

    Tom Schin: Yeah.

    Reg Harnish: It's exciting.

    Tom Schin: So one other thing we like to kind of weave in toward as we wrap up here are the discussion around community involvement. What sort of community engagement do you tie yourself to on a personal note that you'd like to kind of give a plug to to our audience?

    Reg Harnish: The Red Cross has really become sort of a mainstay for me. I was on the board for two terms, like eight years total. I'm on the disaster action team. I've got training for sheltering, so people in Florida and they're setting up a shelter and stuff like that. And so I'd really like to do more. But the Red Cross, people don't know just how amazing and just how comprehensive. Like, the stuff that they do is just unbelievable. I have a nephew who just went into the Air Force and there's a system where families can contact their children or relatives in the military, and it's actually easier and faster to go through the Red Cross than it is to go through that branch of the military. And they also provide a system to do that, but it's way faster to do it through the Red Cross and way more effective. And just the things that the Red Cross does for veterans and for people in need.
    And at the worst possible point in your life, the lowest point, your entire house is gone. Every picture, everything is just gone. And they often beat the firefighters there. They're often the first ones on scene. And there's 100 other things we could go into, but I just really respect them and I just admire, just an amazing, amazing organization. And really well run too, especially the local chapter, which is really where I've been involved. Every year I say I'm going to get prepared in June, in July, to go and be ready for hurricane season. I still haven't made it happen, but I'm just really committed to doing that.

    Tom Schin: Thanks for sharing that.

    Miriam Dushane: Absolutely. And we'll post more information about the Red Cross on our website in conjunction with this blog or this video. This isn't a video, this is a podcast. Holy cow.

    Reg Harnish: I was going to say, glad it's not a video.

    Miriam Dushane: Sorry. We do a lot of different stuff. But Reg, thanks so much for joining us today.

    Reg Harnish: Oh, this was great.

    Miriam Dushane: This was a whole new side of Reg that I didn't know about because we were talking, we were reminiscing over the holidays that we've known each other for a really long time, but more in a business setting. So this was nice to get to know you a little bit better. Thank you so much for joining us.

    Reg Harnish: Yeah, it was great. And I more and more enjoy this side of life and conversations like this too. So I appreciate it. Thank you for the invitation.

    Tom Schin: Thanks for joining us. I loved how Reg put this, "Is it worth it?" question into our head throughout this discussion, just in terms of that small business piece we talked on the front end of our conversation with him. The small business doesn't get the love and attention and knowledge share that big box does, right? So I love that he has that perspective to share with everyone about what to pay attention to and learning all these funny stories. The Bill Gates similarity aside, that was, I couldn't get that out of my head. I'm like putting glasses on him.

    Miriam Dushane: It was awesome. Yeah, I know, right? Put the little glasses on. But I think what's really important, and what I think he also shed some light on, is just as much as small business doesn't get the attention it deserves, small business acts that way too. And they need to understand that they could be a target, their people could be a target. And so understanding that cyber security is just as important to a person, a solopreneur, to someone who has 25 employees and up. It's super, super important. And I, for one, can speak off the top of my head. I can remember at least in the last year, at least four or five different phishing scams where people posed as me to others in our company. So I think it's super important.

    Tom Schin: Well, and not for nothing. We joke about zombies and post- apocalyptic stuff. I can't say that word cleanly, but if you think about that small business, most small businesses work with other small businesses and one accepts a virus or a phishing scam, it's going to ripple throughout that entire community. And as he put it, I think he said 98.8 something percent of businesses in the United States are small businesses.

    Miriam Dushane: Absolutely.

    Tom Schin: It impacts everyone. So the importance really can't be stressed enough. So it was a thrill to have him on here as a guest today, and we hope you enjoyed that. So for more notes on things like the Red Cross, read through our show notes here on But thanks for being with us on HR In The Car.